Re: Planet X: ZetaTalk ACCURACY

On 10 Apr 2002, Jeff Root wrote:

> Duncan Carroll (duncan@andrew.cmu.edu) replied to my missive
> regarding "pole shift", Nancy, and her admirers:
>
>> Man, oh man.  Frankly, and with all due respect, sir, I have only
>> heard such posturing from naive children.  Would it not be "wise" to
>> step down, in modest humility, from your own pedestal of anxious
>> doubts?  Contesting your presumptions is not worth the bandwidth,
>> suffice to say that a mind is like a parachute...
>>
>> Give it a rest.  We will all find out in due time who is to play the
>> fool, here, as all present know that Nancy will *not* be able to
>> wiggle out, should nothing substantial occur leading up to or during
>> May of 2003.  Period.
>
> Hello, Duncan!
>
> I appreciate that your advice is to give it a rest, and that
> you feel that contesting my "presumptions" is not worthwhile,
> but I'm not clear on what specific errors you think I'm making,
> and I really want to know.
>
> That I have made "presumptions", I do not doubt, but I have
> no idea which presumptions of mine you find fault with.
>
> And I don't know what you refer to as my "posturing".  With
> such an enormous range of human behavior in the world, it seems
> unlikely that my "posturing" is at an extreme of the spectrum
> of what you have heard from adults, but I really have no idea
> what you are referring to.
>
> The only thing you said above that I definitely disagree with
> is that I have "anxious doubts" about anything I've discussed.
> I do not.  What you mean by "pedestal of anxious doubts" is a
> mystery to me.
>
> Maybe I can explain why I post these messages.  If I understand
> my own motives correctly, then I suspect that they also apply
> to others here.
>
> I think my reason for posting is, very simply, that I feel
> anger when an apparently intelligent person says something
> untrue which is clearly and obviously and demonstrably untrue,
> and asserts authority in the truth of the assertion, despite
> having the knowledge that the assertion is untrue.
>
> Why I feel anger, I do not know, but I think you will agree
> that anger in such a situation is a natural and predictable
> response.  Further, I think you will agree that attempting
> to correct and/or expose the untruths is a natural and
> predictable expression of my anger.  Finally, I don't see
> that I've gone farther with these expressions than others.
>
> If *I* have said anything that you believe is untrue, you are
> free and welcome to take me to task for it.  I know that I do
> speak untruthfully many times.  I hope that it is only when I
> am mistaken, but I am susceptible to the temptation to stretch
> the truth when that is easy to do, so I should be corrected
> when that happens, just like anyone else.
>
> The bottom line is: I don't know specifically what you are
> complaining about, but I want to know.
>
>   -- Jeff, in Minneapolis
>
> .
>

Preface:  This started out as an individual reply and gradually morphed
into something, imo, suitable for the entire board.

Jeff,

Tim Leary has a saying that goes, "You can't talk to a caterpillar in
butterfly language", and I have found this to be accurate, insomuchas I
have found it quite hard to convey spiritual or intuitive experience and
concepts to scientists (mainly CMU professors) with whom I have spoken.
But let's give it a shot!  I've given my "$0.02 on the Zeta's" in a March
31 sci.astro post of the same name, briefly summarizing why I give
credence to the information coming from Nancy, And here, we are definitely
moving away from the richter 15 topic of this thread, but this is for the
sake of the greater discussion.  So, instead of parrying your questions
piecemeal with individual arguments, I will try to illuminate for you why
I made the comments I did re: your statements, just as you did for me.  I
hope this is helpful, and please note that I am not wearing my "flame
proof suit", and am not interested in such battle.

The difficulty with clear communication in these ongoing debates is, to
me, that those who feel qualified to tackle the nitty-gritty of the ZTalk
scenario, in doing so, necessarily shut out the larger picture.  But this
works both ways, of course, as I do not feel qualified to tackle the grit,
but I do feel that I have a perspective on the "larger picture".  Having
lurked around a bit in these threads, I see a lot of valid points being
made, but I also see much room for uncertainty, and it is this that I
refer to broadly as the possible subconscious expression of "anxious
doubts".

One point I feel needs to be made clear:  You will find that there is
little dissagreement among recognized authorities in this matter, that we
are living in, or are very close to much-prophesized "End Times".  In
Vedanta scripture this age is known as the Kali Yuga.  Here I quote Meher
Baba from volume III of "Discourses"

"Those who are spiritually awake have been aware for some time that the
world is at present in the midst of a period such as always precedes
Avataric manifestations [The Avatar, or the incarnation of God on earth,
is said to arrive before times of unusually great suffering].  Even
unawakened men and women are becoming aware of it now ... For the moment
[written in 1938] they must be patient.  The wave of destruction must rise
still higher, must spread still further ... The disease of selfishness in
mankind will need a cure which is not only universal in its application
but drastic in nature ... It is so deep-rooted that is can be eradicated only 
if it is attacked from all sides ... The present chaos and destruction will 
engulf the whole world, but it will be followed by a very long period in 
which there shall be no war ... What will the present chaos lead to?  How 
will it all end?  It can only end in one way.  makind will be sick of it all.  
Men will be sick of wanting and sick of fighting out of hatred... The way out 
of the dead-lock will be found through selflessness ... Great suffering awakens 
great understanding ... Unprecedented suffering leads to unprecedented 
spiritual growth."

I implore you to read these words carefully.  They are the words of a man
who spend his *entire life* in charitable service [dare I say
Service-to-Other?], in addition to keeping a vow of silence for 40 years
of his 60 year life, in keeping with his saying, "I have not come to teach
[verbally], but to awaken".  If not a pole shift type scenario, what else
could induce "unprecedented suffering, universal and drastic in
application"?  (and to those who do not "buy" the Pole Shift theory of
geological change, I ask, how do you refute Velikovsky?)  A side note,
Baba has also written about the fate of the continent of India, stating
that near the end the rivers will run red, and India will suffer
disproportionally greater than the remainder of the world.  I point you to
ZTalk's statements that the continent of India is predicted to go
underwater, Atlantis-style.

You may be aware of specific Hopi prophecy, as well as more recent
Christian prophecies (although I am not well-versed in this particular
area).  The end date of the Mayan calendar is also much-touted.  Baba is
also quite clear in regards to what he refers to as "cycles of time", of
which we are rapidly approaching an end, as well as a "new beginning".

Baba has this to say on wisdom, and upon reading this I could not help but
think of the posts of the die-hard Nancy-bashers on our very own
sci.astro:
"Once an inquisitive and doubting man went to Bayazid the Perfect Master
and said, 'You, being Perfect, ought to know the thoughts of others.  What
am I thinking of just now?'  Bayazid replied, 'You are thinking of that
which you ought not to have thought of, and asking that which you ought
not to have asked.  Had you come with an open mind and curbed tongue you
would have recieved that which you ought to have recieved, instead of this
well-deserved rebuke.'"

Lest there be any confusion, I am not putting Mrs. Leider on a pedestal,
here, so I don't want ot hear any yelling of "cult follower!".  But I hope
the point has been made.

So, when I say "I have only seen such posturing in naive children", what I
am getting at is that, with all due respect, who are you to pass judgement
on mental stability?  Until very recently, anthropologists visiting
Amazonian cultures simply described the shamans who claimed to speak with
spirits as schitzos and as mad.  It was only when R. Gordon Wasson, then
VP of JP Morgan, participated in a sacred mushroom rite (as reported in
Life magazine, 1953), that the West began to see it's gross misconceptions
regarding the mind, the brain, and the world.  Modern day shamans like
Terence McKenna have continued this exploration into the uncharted regions
of the mind.  His prescription?  "Five dried grams of psylocibin cubensis
mushrooms on a rainy day in your apartment, and Magellan will take a back
seat."  Many scientists describe phenomenal or otherwise super-mindane
events in their lives.  Read, "The Scientist" by John C. Lilly, the
inventor of the isolation tank.  I will quote from his web page, "I made
so many discoveries [using the tank] that I didn't dare tell the
psychiatric group about it at all because the would've said I was
psychotic.  I found the isolation tank was a hole in the universe.  I
gradually began to see through to another reality.  It scared me.  I
didn't know about alternate realities at that time, but I was experiencing
them left and right without any LSD."

As I have stated in my "$0.02" post, available evidence suggests that the
UFO/ET phenomena is not a mass delusion.  Read, "DMT: The Spirit
Molecule" chapters "Contact Through the Veil", for lucid descriptions of
contact with alien entities seeming to inhabit the same physical space as
the experimentors, yet invisible under ordinary circumstances.  Sound like
Zetatalk?  I will say that when I read ZTalk, I was quite surprised to
find the correlations between earlier research I had done on the subject,
and I do not believe for a second that Nancy has read the DMT book, which
in any case was published in 2001.  The most logical explanation?  That
there is a kernel of truth to the information she imparts.  As I've stated
before, we'll find out soon enough.

So, wrapping things up here because I am way way late for my Astronomy
recitation:

Do I have a problem with the math regarding the melting of the Earth's
crust in response to a Richter 15 quake?  No.

Do I have a problem with the assumption that a distant body could simply
and flatly NOT be, in some way, already affecting the magnetically
sensitive core of the Earth? No, *however*, I do admit my ignorance on the
subject, and in that ignorance lies the possibility that is *may be*
occurring by some cosmic mechanism that our science is unfamiliar with.
Even our most cherished and long-standing physical theories can be called
into question.  Just look at Kepler and Newton's laws in regards to the
problem of Dark Matter.

Do I have a problem with your brash statements regarding your conception
of what is "sane", and what is "not sane"?  Most certainly, and I do hope
that the above has presuaded you to not write ZTalk off as the
hallucinatory, delusional fantasy of a deranged yet strangely otherwise
mild-mannered, middle aged mother.


Sincerely,
Duncan Carroll