Re: Pole Shifts vs Ice Ages (Revisited)

"John Shakespeare" wrote:
> "Ian" wrote:
>> John,
>>
>> You seem to have (deliberately?) missed the point here completely.
>
> On the contrary. I addressed her point as she stated it. She asserted
> that ice caps can not exist at the same latitudes as warmer climates.

I have never seen such a statement from Nancy. On the contrary, she has
always claimed that Greenland is the previous North Pole, which is why it
has such a huge ice cap.

I think you may be using parts of the discussion between Tom & Nancy out of
context here; there's never been any doubt as far as I have seen on her
position vs. Greenland.

> Since her premise is demonstrably false, there was no need to address
> the absurd hypothesis she claimed it supported.

An excellent attempt to avoid the issue. Unfortunately, you were observed
while running from the scene...

>> If you look at the globe, the Arctic Circle passes through a number of
>> real hostile areas like Siberia, Baffin Island etc. These areas do not
>> have any of the warming effect by the Gulf stream as have Scandinavia,
>> Iceland & Greenland, yet they do not have anywhere near Greenland's ice
>> cap.
>
> Which contradicts Nancy's statement that ice caps can not exist at the
> same latitudes as warmer climates. So you also agree that she's wrong.

No, but I can see you have a reading problem.

>> Finland, East of Scandinavia, does not have the same direct effect from
>> the Gulf stream, and may have extreme cold periods like Helsinki down
>> to -45 °C (~-50 °F) last winter, yet when spring comes, the snow goes.
>> The North Cape, Europe's northernmost point, is snow & ice free during
>> summer, and no ice building occurs in the area.
>
> Helsinki does not get -45C, and rarely gets to -30C.

The official statistics from FMI only covers up to 1999, and states the
lowest temperature measured in Helsinki to be -34.3 °C. However, last year
was not typical, with extreme cold in large areas of the Nordic region.
According to my local sources, Helsinki had down to ~-45°C for about a week
last winter.

> Utsjoki and similar locations get a few days around -45C each year, and
> occasionally even colder. The Gulf stream carries a great deal of thermal
> energy towards Europe, enough to influence Finland. The mountains to the
> North also reduce the transport of cold air from the polar region towards
> Finland.
>
> You see, topography and circulation patterns in the ocean and atmosphere
> affect climate. Latitude is important, but is not the only factor.
>
>> The Greenland icecap contains 1/8th of the global ice mass or about 2.5
>> million cubic km. Europe's larges glacier, Vatnajökul on Iceland, just
>> south of the Arctic Circle, is a mere dwarf in comparison with its 3.300
>> cubic km, and melting.
>>
>> As you yourself has pointed out, the cold climate as of Northern Europe
>> is not enough to build an icecap like the one on Greenland.
>>
>> Any ideas how it got there??
>
> The same way Finland got its ice cap.

Which ice cap? Since when did Finland get an ice cap?? (This could be
fun...)

Or are we now all of a sudden 10.500 years back when all of the Nordic
region was covered with ice? If so, one rather interesting question could be
why Siberia, today same latitude as Greenland, never was covered with any
ice cap??

> A more instructive question would be why Greenland retained its ice
> cap long after the retreat of the other Northern ice caps. Hint:
> you'll find a good part of the answer in the circulation patterns of
> the arctic ocean, especially its inflows and outflows.

Like the Gulf stream's arm that passes between Iceland & Greenland? Or the
one going into Davis Strait, West of Greenland?

> If that's not enough of a hint, then think about why Ellesmere island,
> Devon island, and even Baffin island also have permanent ice caps.

Cheating, cheating...

Greenland is about the size of continental Europe, stretching from far South
of the Arctic Circle almost to the North Pole. Ellesmere Island is far North
of the Arctic Circle, from about 77° to 82° North, Devon Island at about
75°. Only Baffin Island stretches as far South as the Arctic Circle, but has
barely no ice at that latitude. The amount of ice in general on Baffin
Island is a drop in the ocean compared to Greenland.

Where else ON THE ARCTIC CIRCLE do you find permanent ice of such volume as
on Greenland?

<unprofessional reading suggestions snipped>

>> Ian
>>
>> PS. Since you claim to be such an expert in the field, could you please
>> enlighten me how Geophysics, Climatology and Clacierology link to your
>> area of Paper Manufacturing?
>
> It does not stretch one's expertise to spot gross error.

As many scientists have done concerning the current explanations of the ice
ages and misplaced ice caps. However, it does not take any expertise at all
to just follow with the mainstream.

> As it happens, earth sciences have been among my interests for a long
> time.

Well, I have noted more than once that interest != expertise. Your Earth
Science interests have not changed, only strengthened this observation.

Ian